Start of a build-up (long winded)

[rockdawg]

It’s time to start upgrading to a long arm suspension, front high pinion swap, mml, and flat TC skid. I figured I would start a buildup thread while I’m at it.

Here’s a pic of pretty much as it sits right now with the exception of Toyo tires instead of the MTR’s
http://www.protec-systems.com/tj1a.jpg

The jeep is my dd and will be for at least one more year. My goal is to increase the off road performance without degrading the on road perf. I’ll be doing this on a very tight budget. I am going to fab-up whatever I can and buy only what I cant.

I’m running a short arm 4” with a 2”bl. right now. The low and wide profile has been great so far. The on road performance has been great. I drive it like a sports car around town and frequently run at 80mph on the highway.

Off road it’s been one of the most stable rig’s I’ve ever driven. The more I hit the harder trails though I realize I need some upgrades.
Here’s what I’m doing/planning and why:

Ground clearance. After tagging the transfer case skid and gas tank skid on rocks it’s time to raise them up. I have already done a 3" gas tank lift. Here’s a before and after pic.
http://www.ehi-inc.com/2jeep.jpg

Right now the tank and exhaust are even with the bottom of my bumper. While I was under there I moved the lower shock mounts out behind the control arm brackets and up higher to get some clearance from the spring cups.

I will be fabbing up a flatter skid for the transfer case. My plans are to get a replacement skid from a 33eng. kit and the high clearance trans mount. I will fab up the x-member and bolt the skid to it. This will save me about $200.00 over buying a complete kit.
Here’s a pic of the skid
http://www.offroadtoystore.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/skiddriversidegifsmall.gif
I will be doing a motor mount lift to help the rear driveshaft angle after I raise the transfer case. I’m going with the JKS spacers, as they should be around 50.00

I bought a Dana 30 high pinion front end from Justin to get the front driveshaft up out of harms way and to help correct the angle after the mml. I bought new 4:56 gears and need to install them, swap the alloy axles, locker and knuckles from my old axle into the new one.

Now comes the hard part. Setting up my suspension. Right now I have a pretty good amount of flex. My suspension will flex as much as the shocks will extend.
Here’s a pic of it and I can get plenty more out of it but it’s the only flex pic I have.
http://www.tri-state4x4.com/gallery/albums/Ride_4-30-05/paragonpics3/pa11.jpg

I have rancho rock crawler lowers and RE adjustable uppers. The lowers use very large urethane bushings and I attribute the comfortable ride and good flex to them. I am at the lift limit with the short arms and I need to stretch the wheelbase a couple of inches
My problem is the front tires contact the rear of the fender wells when they are stuffed and I am turning. That is why I would like to stretch the wheelbase 2” in the front. Also I feel I can get a better approach angle with the tires closer to the front of the jeep. I will be adding 1” of lift also.

For simplicity I will be building a radius arm type front (like the RE and Clayton hard arm set-up). I don’t like the arms that use heim type joints because of the shock load they place on the axle mounts. I need to drive this everyday and need comfort also. I will be using RE Johnny joints at the frame end and urethane bushings at the axle end. The arms will be 2” Dom for the lowers and 1.5 for the uppers.
This is a pic of what the arms will look like when they are done
http://www.suicidedoors.com/images/products/4-Link_Round_Adj_Bar_with_Super_Pivot.jpg

I will be making a new upper track bar mount and mounting it 2” forward of the stock one. I am also going to rotate the steering box up and forward and make sure the steering arm and track bar are at the same height to eliminate bump steer. Most likely I will move the coil spring buckets forward and level them some so the springs are a little more parallel with the bump stops.

As for the rear I’m still deciding on what I want to do. For the lowers I will be doing 2” round tube with the same JJ/Urethane bushing combo as the front. For the uppers I cant decide on whether I want to go triangulated and remove the trac bar or just extend them and keep the trac bar. Obviously I will gain more flex from the triangulated set-up and be able to move the rear axle back 1”. However I have heard from a few people that this will add a little more sway to the rear end when cornering on the road. I’m not trying to build a super flexy comp rig, just something that will flex enough off road with good on road manners. I am leaning toward the triangulated uppers because I will get rid of the torque steer I have now (no more 100’ wheelies though).

If I do this I will have to fab up a rear axle truss unless I can find a good price on a bolt up type like the rock crawler one.

Feel free to post any comments and I will try to keep this thread updated with pic’s as I go.

PS: If you’ve read this far sorry for taking up 10 minutes of your life you will never get back

[dmxjg35]

hey al, sounds awesome, sounds like you have this well thought out. I hope your not starting this till after this weekends ride lol. Are you going 3 or 4 link? my jeep is 3 link in the front and i love it, i drive alot like you and i dont hesitate to take off on rt80 at 70-75 with my 35's it is so much smoother with the long arms and doesnt jump around when you hit potholes like with the short arms.

I dont know if you saw on rk site then had a good little info thing on long arms the pros and cons of each system. heres the link http://www.rockkrawler.com/spages/pages/long_arm_tech.htm

Gives you some good food for thought. Id evently like to 4 link the rear like system c seems to give you the most flex with the least binding

[rockdawg]

Dave, I did see that page on rock crawlers site.
I have a tendancy to overbuild stuff so I'm going with a 4 link(I guess you could call it a 5 link if you include the trac bar). I want to spread the force out to 4 locations on the axle. If I find that it binds up on me I could remove the right upper link when I want to and essentially have a 3 link. I'll be using heim joints for the uppers where they meet the lowers and stock bushings where they meet the upper axle mounts.

Last time I was at paragon with the quad I was BS'ing with a guy who was running the clayton hard arm kit and he was playing on his trailer like it was an rti ramp. I was amazed at how much flex he had when a lot of people complain about how a radius design limits flex. He was also the guy who commented about sway in the rear with the triangulated set-up on the back. I think he was going with an anti-rock back there to help with that though.

[YJSAABMAN]

Fab it up! Why purchase what anyone else can when you can make it yourself and be different! Still determining exactly what crazy link-arm style I'm going to fab up for my YJ, but I like the ideas! Good luck with it and keep us posted.

[XEON]

Awesome, I think it will work out great Al! I hope that axle works out! Let me know if you want an extra hand holding the light or something :D.

Keep those pictures comming. This will be a very infomative writeup!

[njedgexj]

what about doing a triangulated 4 link for the front and rear so u can get rid of the sway bars

[rockdawg]

what about doing a triangulated 4 link for the front and rear so u can get rid of the sway bars
Holy crap! Scott- How have you been?
I Have to keep the front trac bar so I dont get bump steer. If I didnt have to drive it on the road I would go full hydraulic and not have to worry about it. I could go with upper long arms although I would have to make bent ones for exhaust/starter clearance. I'm going radius in the front for simplicity.

[ROCKREADYXJ]

what about doing a triangulated 4 link for the front and rear so u can get rid of the sway bars

NO because it will work against your steering and cause you to crash you would need to run on axle steering in a vehicle with that set up.

[ROCKREADYXJ]

Dave, I did see that page on rock crawlers site.
I have a tendancy to overbuild stuff so I'm going with a 4 link(I guess you could call it a 5 link if you include the trac bar). I want to spread the force out to 4 locations on the axle. If I find that it binds up on me I could remove the right upper link when I want to and essentially have a 3 link. I'll be using heim joints for the uppers where they meet the lowers and stock bushings where they meet the upper axle mounts.

Last time I was at paragon with the quad I was BS'ing with a guy who was running the clayton hard arm kit and he was playing on his trailer like it was an rti ramp. I was amazed at how much flex he had when a lot of people complain about how a radius design limits flex. He was also the guy who commented about sway in the rear with the triangulated set-up on the back. I think he was going with an anti-rock back there to help with that though.

If you remove one of the arms you will not get a true 3 link. The radius arm set up is really a two link when you think about it because there is only two axle mounts attaching to the frame where as the three link there is three. although you see 4 arms on the raduis set up and 3 on a three link you still have more mounting points to the frame with a three link and it will rid alot better due to the caster axle staying more true while going down the road.


As far as a triangulated 4 link in the rear. I run mine with sway bars off road and on road it does better for articulation off road with them on and helps keep the vehicle Level when off camber. As far as swaying on the road I thought the leafs were worse than this set up. But properly tuned shocks can give you the feel you are looking for to get the best of both worlds. on and off the road.

Good luck with your build If you need some fab parts joints and what not ot the weld in cradle from Rock Krawler let me know


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/ROCKREADYXJ/REARCOILOVER.jpg

[njedgexj]

i was not aware that a triangulated 4 link front and rear was bad...i was thinking of the LCG kit from tera...hey al have been good tryin to keep busy doin the small engine repair thing, i started up my own business...im actually starting a part time job at a local machine shop soon so i can get some steady cash in the mean time...also i start welding classes on feb 6...so that should be good, how are you doin?

[mybigredjeep]

Hey joe what are the specs on that zj in the background of that pic?

[speedracer983]

Holy hell .... is that Scott .... he is on less than I am these days .... Looks good Uncle Al ... your worse than me .... I thought my truck was out of hand.

[ROCKREADYXJ]

Hey joe what are the specs on that zj in the background of that pic?

thats a toyota tacoma with a fabtech 6 inch kit. Rides really well and does decent off road. I was very happy with the way it turned out.

[mybigredjeep]

wow my bad looks like a zj at a quick glance

[rockdawg]

Wow Daryl and Scott in the same day! good to hear from you guy's

Dave, I have to check out your 3-link saturday Maybe I should bring a tape measure :)

Joe, If you can get me a price for the rk rear truss or for a weld on one (dana44)I would appreciate it.

The only thing that worries me about the 3 link on the front is the strenth of the d30. I worry about twisting or bending it with the right side only supported by one link.

[XEON]

Wow Daryl and Scott in the same day! good to hear from you guy's

Dave, I have to check out your 3-link saturday Maybe I should bring a tape measure :)

Joe, If you can get me a price for the rk rear truss or for a weld on one (dana44)I would appreciate it.

The only thing that worries me about the 3 link on the front is the strenth of the d30. I worry about twisting or bending it with the right side only supported by one link.

TRUSS THAT D30 :D I read an article in JP magazine on a sweet D30 build up. They trussed it and they said it held up great. Let mek now if you need a copy of the article :).

[Halo Performance]

Justin, I could use a copy of that article.

Al, sounds like one hell of a build up. I'd love to see the final product on that. Keep us all posted.

[rockdawg]

TRUSS THAT D30 I read an article in JP magazine on a sweet D30 build up.
I read that article. They ruined a perfectly good axle.
They trussed the bottom for strenth and killed the ground clearance.

The truss we are talking about is for mounting the upper rear links to the rear axle. here's a pic of the BTF one for a 14bolt axle
http://www.bluetorchfab.com/gallery/albums/grayghost/DSC01770.jpg

[ROCKREADYXJ]

The only thing that worries me about the 3 link on the front is the strenth of the d30. I worry about twisting or bending it with the right side only supported by one link.

Well you worries are the oposite. the 3 link alows the axle to twist free. but that radius you described like clayton and RE put even more twisting force on the axle. So if you are worried about eliminating the twisting force the 3 link is your answer.

That cradle is about $150 for the weld on one.

[XEON]

I read that article. They ruined a perfectly good axle.
They trussed the bottom for strenth and killed the ground clearance.

The truss we are talking about is for mounting the upper rear links to the rear axle. here's a pic of the BTF one for a 14bolt axle
http://www.bluetorchfab.com/gallery/albums/grayghost/DSC01770.jpg

heh, Yea they did kill the clearance, but that would strengthen the axle a bit. Yea, I knew what you were talking about with Joe. Wish I had my bender... I could make you one :D

[dmxjg35]

Dave, I have to check out your 3-link saturday Maybe I should bring a tape measure :)



feel free al, you can even see it in action. I would be more worried about the d30 bending before the rk arms tho :lmao: those suckers are beefy solid stock. Ive hit some pretty big potholes pretty hard with no ill effect just kept on going unlike the short arms where i thought the front end was gonna fall off

[ROCKREADYXJ]

heh, Yea they did kill the clearance, but that would strengthen the axle a bit. Yea, I knew what you were talking about with Joe. Wish I had my bender... I could make you one :D

Justin it would be stronger from plate steel like the btf one. But if you did not have the removable front pinion support like the 14 bolt. A I beam design like the rock Krawler one is the strongest way. A bent piece of DOM or a three piece square tubing does not have the rigidity that the I beam truss has.

[rockdawg]

I see what you guy's are talking about now with the 3-link. I was thinking of the old rk 3-link that was set-up like the radius arms with the right upper missing(short arm going from the lower arm to the axle). Now I realize it's set up like a true 4-link with the right upper missing.

Here's where one of my concerns comes in about that style of susp.
Last year when we were a pap There was a guy with a red Xj(I suck at remembering names). When he was wheeling with scott he came down hard on a rock and broke the upper right axle bracket.(another reason I dont like heim ends at both ends. I think rubber bushings would have prevented this) Now I know those brackets are crap but with the 3-link there would not have been a control arm there and the force would have transfered where? I assume to the driver side upper arm. Now you arent going to break that bracket since it's cast into the housing. Would the force be enough to twist the axle tubes?

My other concern has to due with how torque and braking forces apply to the control arms. Having built drag cars and setting up rear 4links I got to see those forces in action. For example: I had set up a low horsepower car(about 500hp) to leave the line level and with both front tires just touching the ground. We changed the motor to a 650hp one and the car left the line on the right rear tire! the other 3 were off the ground. Way too much bite and the roll center was off. It took a lot of adjusting to get the car to hook correctly and a lot of help from someone who know way more than I did at the time. I believe he told me I knew just enough to be dangerous :)

Anyway back on topic: Here is something I read from a person who is well respected when it comes to jeep link type suspensions.

When torque is applied to the front axle from the drive shaft, the driver side tire is loaded more than the passenger side tire in relation the tire size and gear ratio. If the single upper link angles down from the chassis to the axle, and is on the passenger side, the vertical component of the compression force on the link will counteract the tire loading from the driveshaft torque and give more equal tire loading. When the upper link is on the driver side, the vertical component of the compression force on the link will add to the tire loading from the driveshaft torque and load the driver side tire even more. If the upper link angles up from the chassis to the axle mount, you need to put it on the opposite sides as above.

Under braking, the vertical component of the tension force in the upper link will pitch the vehicle to one side, depending on which side the upper link is on. This may be minimal because the link will tend to level out under the suspension compression during braking and may be further reacted by the anti-sway bar, but still may be a problem, depending on the goemetry. Having the upper link level will minimize or negate all the effects as there is no vertical tension/compression forces on the link.

A three link/panhard bar is a compromise, to have the best climbing traction, you need the link to be offset, to have the best braking traction, the link needs to be centered. My suggestion is to put the link on the passenger side and to make it angled slightly up to the chassis. When braking the front will dive, leveling out the upper link and loading the tires and suspension springs equally, and when climbing the suspension will lift, putting more compression on the passenger side tire and more equally loading the tires and suspension springs.

A four-link w/ panhard bar (factory jeep) will always counteract the unequal tire loading due to driveshaft torque (maybe that's why Jeep designed it that way), and give more equal tire loading throughout the range of axle articulation. Also, under braking, the upper link tension force will be balanced left to right and not make the vehicle pitch (probably the main reason Jeep used a 4-link). But the 4 link will bind unless some of the joints have some give or deflection as the OEM jeep rubber bushings do.


Those last two paragraphs have me leaning toward the 4-link.

[rockdawg]

A bent piece of DOM or a three piece square tubing does not have the rigidity that the I beam truss has.

Yea but it sure is ugly :)

Joe-The price you quoted me, is that for the I-beam one?
I am definatly considering it. I have enough stuff to fab up and that would help me out some. Thanks BTW

[ROCKREADYXJ]

Yea but it sure is ugly :)

Joe-The price you quoted me, is that for the I-beam one?
I am definatly considering it. I have enough stuff to fab up and that would help me out some. Thanks BTW

yes that is

[ROCKREADYXJ]

I see what you guy's are talking about now with the 3-link. I was thinking of the old rk 3-link that was set-up like the radius arms with the right upper missing(short arm going from the lower arm to the axle). Now I realize it's set up like a true 4-link with the right upper missing.

Here's where one of my concerns comes in about that style of susp.
Last year when we were a pap There was a guy with a red Xj(I suck at remembering names). When he was wheeling with scott he came down hard on a rock and broke the upper right axle bracket.(another reason I dont like heim ends at both ends. I think rubber bushings would have prevented this) Now I know those brackets are crap but with the 3-link there would not have been a control arm there and the force would have transfered where? I assume to the driver side upper arm. Now you arent going to break that bracket since it's cast into the housing. Would the force be enough to twist the axle tubes?





I have had to read that a couple times. If he landed on the passenger side upper arm and broke it. Then if he had the three link in there I could not predict what he might hit oil pan? Trans? Not sure if I am getting the picture you are painting. The third arm on the RK kit is really high and almost level I can't see you landing on it. But if you are describing the torsion twisting of the axle is what caused the bracket to break then you will never experience that with 3 independent links because the is nothing opposing the force like with that 4th arm

[drs98tj]

I have just finished reading this thing and I know form experiance that the Rock Krawler long arm with the 3 link up front has not given me any problems on the road or off. In fact the arms have held up to some major abuse and so far the only thing that I had doen to it is pop one of the krawler joint balls out of the socket, so I upgraded to the new ones that they had come out with this past summer. This kit is probably one of the strongest that I have ever seen. I have seen people ruin other kits doing some tough manuvers and the RK kit keeps putting out for more. Some one had posted before that the double hiem joints are bad and can cause some problems, but the amount of flex and articulation out of the whole kit is amazing if I did not have fenders on my jeep I could almost hit my hood with a tire.
Sorry to be long winded.

[rockdawg]

I have just finished reading this thing and I know form experiance that the Rock Krawler long arm with the 3 link up front has not given me any problems on the road or off. In fact the arms have held up to some major abuse and so far the only thing that I had doen to it is pop one of the krawler joint balls out of the socket, so I upgraded to the new ones that they had come out with this past summer. This kit is probably one of the strongest that I have ever seen. I have seen people ruin other kits doing some tough manuvers and the RK kit keeps putting out for more. Some one had posted before that the double hiem joints are bad and can cause some problems, but the amount of flex and articulation out of the whole kit is amazing if I did not have fenders on my jeep I could almost hit my hood with a tire.

Yea, I had a chance to wheel with dave a couple of weekends ago. He has the RK 3-link in his XJ. It looked great. RK has come a long way with the new joints. I beleive he was very happy with the ride and performance.

I'm still not convinced on running 3-links though. I like to have 4 incase one breaks. I know the arms are super strong but the factory axle mounts are crap. I plan on beefing up the factory mounts but shit happens and I want to be able to limp off the trail if it does.

[rockdawg]

I have had to read that a couple times. If he landed on the passenger side upper arm and broke it. Then if he had the three link in there I could not predict what he might hit oil pan? Trans? Not sure if I am getting the picture you are painting. The third arm on the RK kit is really high and almost level I can't see you landing on it. But if you are describing the torsion twisting of the axle is what caused the bracket to break then you will never experience that with 3 independent links because the is nothing opposing the force like with that 4th arm

I think He was going down a steep trail and just cought some air. The right front tire landed hard on a rock. The failure was the lower right axle bracket. Since he had an upper arm on there it helped share some of the impact. the lower bracket was bent and hangin on by a thread but he was able to drive it back to camp so we could beat it back into shape and donny welded it back together.

[brandon11130]

I have had to read that a couple times. If he landed on the passenger side upper arm and broke it. Then if he had the three link in there I could not predict what he might hit oil pan? Trans? Not sure if I am getting the picture you are painting. The third arm on the RK kit is really high and almost level I can't see you landing on it. But if you are describing the torsion twisting of the axle is what caused the bracket to break then you will never experience that with 3 independent links because the is nothing opposing the force like with that 4th arm

hey remember me, i talked to you a while ago about a d44 and what i wanted to do with my xj, ever find any xj or mj d44's?

also how much money for a RK xj LA upgrade?

[XEON]

hey remember me, i talked to you a while ago about a d44 and what i wanted to do with my xj, ever find any xj or mj d44's?

also how much money for a RK xj LA upgrade?

Please PM him, or create another thread. Thanks!

[brandon11130]

i tried but his PM box is full. sorry i didnt mean to hijack.

[ROCKREADYXJ]

i tried but his PM box is full. sorry i didnt mean to hijack.

TRY it Now

[ROCKREADYXJ]

I think He was going down a steep trail and just cought some air. The right front tire landed hard on a rock. The failure was the lower right axle bracket. Since he had an upper arm on there it helped share some of the impact. the lower bracket was bent and hangin on by a thread but he was able to drive it back to camp so we could beat it back into shape and donny welded it back together.

How are you making out with your build? Progress?

[rockdawg]

How are you making out with your build? Progress?

Right now I'm having to deal with repairs first.
My transfercase skid is finally trashed and I have leaks everywhere.

I'm getting a teralow 4:1 kit for the TC, motormount spacers and the steel to build a new TC skid/x-member.

I figure I'll do all these things at once and while I'm at it figure out if I want to integrate the mounts for the long arms into the new TC skid.

I'm not going full flat skid but as close as I can. I cant afford to redoo the rear driveline right now. I'm just going to let the rear droop as far as it can go and check for DS bind. Wherever I wind up at is as far as I will raise the TC.

I did get the tubing and JJ ends for the long arms. now I need to get the adjustable ends figured out.